VRABEL TRANSCRIPT Stephen speaks
Ohio Legislative Correspondents Association pool interview Friday afternoon (Michael J. Maurer, ThisWeek Newspapers) at Mansfield Correctional Institution with Stephen Vrabel, formerly of Struthers, who is scheduled to be executed Wednesday.
O: As I understand it, you had at one time decided not to speak to the press and then you changed your mind and decided to speak to the press.
V: Well, actually, what I did, was I left it, I just said, I signed a form saying I would speak to the press, but I didn't know this was the press. I didn't know what this was.
O: So what was your thought process in deciding to speak with us?
V: Nothing. I don't know.
O: Is there anything you most want to say, that you want people to know, or read about?
V: Just that I was convicted by a, uh, in an unconstitutional manner. People think that the courts are free from, ah ... I was convicted by a prosecutor that was thrown in, ah, prison. James Philomena was convicted of, ah ... the kinda ... I don't know if you're aware, they had a, a thing in Mahoning County where they busted a bunch of prosecutors and judges and police and stuff like that. My prosecutor was, ah, ... convicted actually of fixing cases, and I think he's in state prison now after he served time in federal prison.
O: You are convicted of two murders, the murder of your wife, common law wife, and your daughter, Susan and Lisa. Do you admit to those crimes?
V: Well, I will say this to you. When I went back to court in 1995, my attorneys entered a not guilty by reason of insanity plea. I entered a not guilty plea. I then became my own attorney, and I entered a not guilty plea to the indictment. Then the attorneys entered another not guilty by reason of insanity plea. So if I would have been my own attorney, I would have presented a case where I was not guilty to the charges. That could mean I'm not guilty of anything to do with it or I'm guilty of just something that happened instantaneously and it would be, ah, not be aggravated murder. But I wouldn't speak any further on that because I don't, I never know what's going to happen. In other words, I don't know, although I'm waiving my appeals. I seriously doubt the governor would grant me clemency, and I don't think anybody's going to interfere. I don't know if someone's going to interfere, file something on my behalf, delay this, for all I know I might change my mind and go to court one day, so that's as much as I would speak on that.
O: So you don't want to say, in case circumstances change, in case you do change your mind?
V: Right.
O: Are you denying the murders or something else?
V: All I'm saying is, I entered a not guilty plea to what I was indicted on.
O: What is your understanding of the process over the next five days or so?
V: I just ... I don't know. I don't know what you mean, how specifically?
O: Well, what do you anticipate? You're scheduled for execution July 14. ...
V: I think that will happen. I'm pretty sure that will happen. But I'm not ... you know, there's never a 100 percent guarantee.
O: And is it your understanding that this depends at least in part on your decision whether to go forward?
V: I imagine ... I don't know. I don't know if they would allow me to change my mind at this point in time. ... Who knows?"
O: I understand you have a sister?
V: Yeah.
O: Do you have any other siblings or other living relatives?
V: I have relatives, aunts and uncles.
O: Tell me a little bit about Susan, what kind of person she was, what her good points were and her bad points.
V: I'd rather not get into that.
O: Describe for me your life after leaving the military.
V: I was ah, I, you know, I had, ah, worked for a while, first I went to school, and then I didn't like the, ah, career choice I had made, so then I worked for a while and then I went back to school. It was, it was fine.
O: Can you describe Lisa's personality to me a little bit?
V: She was a perfect child. Not like some child, children, um, they cry a lot, she never, she was just happy. She was born premature. I don't know if, um, somehow she sensed how lucky she was to have made it because she was really tiny when she was born. She was just a happy child. She never threw tantrums or, ah ... I mean, we went to the zoo one time, after we were there for about five or six hours, after we went back into the car, she would get mad, she might, you know, cry for about 10 seconds, and then, she wouldn't ... she was a young child, she wouldn't cry or anything like that.
O: Do you have a favorite memory of Lisa?
V: I have lots of favorite memories of her.
O: And how about Susan?
V: I suppose I have favorite memories of her too.
O: What do you remember about Susan's other children from her prior marriage?
V: I didn't know them that well.
O: What kind of contact did you have with them?
V: Very little.
O: Did they visit with their mother?
V: I'd rather not get into all that.
O: Have you had contact with her family?
V: I understand the family requested the parole board to maybe ask to, ask me why this happened. And you know, uh, I'm glad, from what I understand that's been denied (turns to prison guard) I don't know if you know about that? But, um, the only thing I would ask is why they would choose that forum and not ever try and contact me and ask if they don't, they, you know, want to know why, I would try and contact them, you know what I'm saying? If I thought you had killed someone in my family and I wanted to know why, I would try and contact you and ask you why. I wouldn't wait to make a spectacle of it at the last minute, you know.
O: Have they ever tried to contact you?
V: No.
O: Would you speak with them if ...
V: No. I have nothing to say to those people. I feel sorry for Susan's children, that they never got to know their mother, but her family, I have nothing to say to those people.
O: Do you feel you were sane at the time of, that you were ...
V: I don't think I've ever been insane in my life. I think sometimes, ah, I think, ah, there's no history of mental illness from, ah, years I was in the military or any job I had or when I was going to college, and I was always either working or going to school or something you know, and so I was always intermingling with people, you know, with people, and nobody ever said, told me that I that they felt I needed to see a psychiatrist.
And as far as, you know, you have, shock, or something from right after the incident and then as far as, you know, maybe there's problems in prison or something like that. Anybody can lose their mind in prison. I think a lot of times things can be misinterpreted. I think, I think I just have some, uh, you know a lot of paranoia, mistrust of the legal system, the legal system in Mahoning County that was found to have judges, police officers, prosecutors, lawyers, all convicted on corruption charges. I have, you know, and I have some paranoia in prison, I mean if you don't have any paranoia in prison there's something wrong with you.
I don't believe I've ever had any severe mental illness.
O: At the time, in March of 1989, were you then distrustful of the local police and judicial system?
V: Yes. I knew some people who had their cases fixed.
O: Do you think your life would be different today or things would have been different at that time if there had been a waiting period to buy the gun?
V: Well, it's hard to say. I, uh, if there had been a waiting period I would still purchase the gun. The main reasons behind purchasing the gun is I was going to night school the next quarter, and, uh, there had been some strange sightings in the back yard, our back yard, the back of our apartment was here and there was woods back there. And there were some people coming trough there, you know, through the back, sitting in the back, it was just something that made me nervous. It made my wife nervous more than me.
O: The bodies were ultimately found in the refrigerator.
V: Well, after this happened, I went to the library, and I thought, somehow, at first I thought I could bring Lisa back to life or something like that, I don't know, I don't know what I was thinking, and I was reading and it said that decomposition was slowed by the cold. So that, that's what that was all about.
O: I'm sorry. Say that again.
V: Decomposition was slowed by cold.
O: And why was that important?
V: Obviously I didn't want them dead. If I wanted them dead, I would've ... I don't think I would've just stayed there with them.
O: Does it make sense to you that a stranger to you and your case would say, "That leads me to think this man might have mental problems of some sort."
V: Well, I can understand that, yeah.
O: Why does that make sense to you? Why does that seem like a reasonable question to ask?
V: Well, it's, I suppose bizarre. It's not the normal thing to do. You know, the aftermath.
O: When you confessed to the police, did that help your grieving process? Did that make you feel better?
V: My, again, again, my intent to confess to the police was that I thought if I confessed to the police and, uh, they would, I could go ahead and be executed shortly thereafter and be, you know, reunited with my daughter, that was my, uh, my belief at that time.
O: Why do you feel you know more than anybody?
V: I don't think the police know much of anything. I really don't. The police only know what I either told them or what they made up on their own. They don't even know the time of death. The police know very little. Her family doesn't know anything.
O: How often have you left, when is the last time you left this prison?
V: To go back to court March 2004.
O: During your clemency hearing the argument was raised, and it's been raised in newspaper stories, that you ought not have the choice to be put to death, that the state has a separate responsibility and that it shouldn't be enough for you to say, "I waive appeals." How do you feel about that? Should you be able to waive appeals?
V: I believe this is America, and as an American citizen, the courts have found that an individual is allowed to waive his appeals. So if they don't like that, then I would suggest they get that changed through the courts.
O: So do you think either the state through a judge or through someone coming into court should have the right to come in and stop your execution?
V: No.
O: Why?
V: Because I believe our constitution is based on individual liberties. The Bill of Rights is based on individual liberties and I believe, you know, my individual liberty supersedes the government's, ah, is that what you were asking?
O: I'm just trying to elicit your thoughts on the death penalty and your circumstances, so it's more, if it's not something you've thought about it, you don't have to answer.
V: I'm not sure.
O: There's an incongruity, to me, it seems, on the one hand you say you want to be put to death, but on the other hand you're saying this penalty is not valid and it's not valid in your case. So I'm just getting your thoughts on those two things.
V: Well ...
O: In a sense, you're taking advantage of something you disagree with.
V: Exactly. But, just because I say it's invalid doesn't mean I can prove it's invalid. Do you know what I mean? If I could prove it's invalid, that would be another, another story.
O: You have alluded to this yourself already, but the biggest question that I've been able to discern from the file and people outside this room, is, why? Why were these two people killed?
V: I, I would rather not get into that.
O: How is your life different from someone who is outside the prison system?
V: Well, you get to choose what you want to eat, what you want to do, I don't have any choice. My life is watching TV. I mean, I'm not saying ... there's a lot of good shows on TV, I never really watched that much TV, and there's a lot of good shows on TV that, you know, time goes by quickly, it's not as though I'm utterly bored and going batty counting the bricks. There's a lot of decent things on TV, and fortunately we're provided with a lot of TV channels.
O: You seem a thoughtful man. I gather you've spent a lot of time studying your case.
V: Yes.
O: Have you developed other interests? History? Politics? Sociology? Have you been able to spend time doing that?
V: Well, I can't read anymore. I have blurred vision. I don't know if it's from medication I'm on, or just as we get older, you know, but I think it's the medication, because when I was on medication back in the early '90s I had blurred vision then. Then it went away.
So I can't really read that much. But, well, you know, when I was able to read, I would get the U.S. Supreme Court decisions and, um, there would be one or two decisions in the big thick book that dealt with me, and before turning it in I would look at it, page through and read every case, read the synopsis of every case. I found that fascinating reading, the Supreme Court decisions
O: I guess my last question then, for me, there's something incongruous about on the one hand being found incompetent to stand trial and yet, within an awfully close time frame being found competent to be responsible for the crime. What's your response to that? How do you reconcile those things?
V: Probably because I didn't want to talk to those people, the examiners, you know, like when they sent me to (unintelligible) I didn't want to talk to them. Um, I think when they see something like that, an individual says, "Well, you know, just put me to death," they feel that is incompetency. And then they hear an individual talking about, well, I don't trust these lawyers, these lawyers are corrupt, this, that and the other thing, and you know, then they had me living in the house with bodies. I think because they had me living in the house with bodies, you know, that, to an average person, well, an expert or an average person, that's an indicator that something isn't clicking on all cylinders.
O: How about to you?
V: Well, it just depends on who's dead. If it was you, a stranger that I never met in my life, and I was living with you and you were in my refrigerator, then I would say that that's not kosher. But if it's someone you care about, it's not as bizarre.
O: You then feel, you're not admitting to the crime, but you do feel that you were sane, you were competent at the time the events occurred?
V: Well if you force lawyers on me, I'm never competent. When I went back, I was found incompetent, then I was found competent, and then I went to trial with lawyers I didn't trust and didn't speak to, how can you defend yourself?
If you were brought up on charges of falsifying material for your newspaper and they brought you up on charges and they appointed someone to defend you and you didn't trust this individual and you didn't speak to this individual, how fair do you think that would be? But if I was allowed to be my own attorney, it's fair because I trust myself.
O: This will be the last opportunity for me to ask, and again I've asked the question before, but is there a reason why your wife and daughter died?
V: I can't comment on that.